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Still having electrical problems

Yahoo Message Number: 1796

Both of us are in Houston working 12 hour days, and when Audrey and I get home at night, around 8-9 pm, the coach is completely dead! The a/c units have quit working, the frig shuts down, and the 12 volt system lights are so dim you can't see to eat. I can turn on a 110 volt desk lamp or the TV and they work fine. But the A/C units refuse to turn on, which with the heat is frustrating. The Genset also won't start.

I then start the coach engine and after a couple minutes, everything turns on. The lights get bright, the Genset will start, and after starting the genset, the A/C units will run again. I leave everything on for a half hour, turn off the engine and genset, then the 12 volt lights dim again, but the A/C units continue to run.

Then tomorrow we will repeat the process. Very frustrating, does ANYONE have any ideas.

Denny

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Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1797
I think we are both going to jump off a bridge soon. You because of that lemon and me because of the stock market.

Seriously Denny, you really have to get rid of that dog. I just feel sorry for the eventual purchaser who thinks he/she is getting a cream puff.

Don


On 6-Oct-08, at 10:21 PM,

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1798

Don,

Ijustwish I had taken your good advice months ago....our experience with Thor and Four Winds has taken years off my life and my wife is feeling the same pain as well. What do we do? We never had any electrical problems until we got this coach back from Four Winds following their "warranty repairs." Now the thing is water logged from their mishandling the repairs and I really think they may have done something to the wiring. I was checking the 12 volt fuse block a couple days ago, and few of the colored wires were where they were supposed to be according to the diagram.
This is driving us NUTS!!! We are also taking a hit on the stock market right now, but there are also some good buys out there as well. Imagine buying AIG at $3 a share!! In a couple years, that stock will again be at $25-$30 a share.
Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1799
Your problem is that the converter is not 1 - providing power to the
12 vdc system 2 - charging the batteries.

The converter is powered by a breaker in your AC panel - The breaker
will be one of the higher value breakers... 20 amp+. Switch off all
the breakers and turn them back on. Just pushing a tripped breaker
toward ON will not reset the breaker. TURN THEM OFF and BACK ON!

If you still do not have 12 VDC, use a meter, or light, to test for
power (120 VAC) going to the converter. If you do have 120 VAC going
to the converter - 1 - the converter is bad, or 2 - the 12 VDC out of
the converter is not getting to the 12 VDC distribution panel.

If the converter is getting 120 VAC - use a meter, or light, to test
for 12 VDC (actually 13+) coming out of the converter. If you have
the 12 VDC from the converter - check all the connections between the
converter and distribution panel. If you do not have 12 VDC - the
converter is bad and need to replace.

All that should take less than 10 minutes. Installing a new
converter takes less than 30 minutes.

As to the AC unit still running while the lights dim quickly - you
can see the lights dim as the batteries loose only a few tenths of a
volt. However, the AC 12 VDC controls will still work as the DC
voltage drops to below 10 volts (your propane leak detector will work
down to about 8 volts).

To start your genset when the coach batteries are dead - you should
have a push button switch (AUX START, EMERGENCY START, etc...) that
cross connects the chassis and couch batteries. The button has to be
held in while trying to start the generator. My AUX START button is
on the dash, and the generator start is on the back wall of the
living room... 20 feet away:( I have to have the wife start the
generator while I hold in the AUX START button or wedge my cane
between the seat back and the AUX START button:)

Good luck!!

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1800

Also check the back of the converter to make sure the two fuses behind the converter are not blown Mine had two 30amp fuses blown so it would not charge the battery.

Keith

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1801

Thanks for all the help... I suspect it is a bad converter... but I accidentally left my meter at home, so I need to get another one this AM...thanks again.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1802

FYI, when the 12 volts drop, the frig also quits working, so there must be a 12 V controller that runs it as well. And just running the genset does not help because it is also tied to the converter. The engine has to charge up the coach batteries for a while before anytime works.... had an idea though. If I put the batteries on a charger, should that get everything up and running again until I find the problem so I don't have to run the engine?

Denny

Still having electrical problems

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1803

I bought a voltage meter (Innova model 3310). I know nothing about meters, but I read the manual. I set the "DCV" on 20... plugged the black line into the "COM" and the red into the "V" side. I checked the output on the converter and it read 12.11 volts. I then unplugged the converter power cord and it still read 12.11 volts. The small "thermal fuse" so well illustrated by Joe is sticking up a little, but there is voltage on both sides of the switch, so it must not have "popped." I reset all the breakers, and there is voltage to the fuse block

For some strange reason, right now everything seems to be working ok... I ran the engine and the genset for a half hour this morning. I know there is a solenoid under the coach that isolates the engine batteries from the coach batteries so they both don't drain when the engine is shut down, but that shouldn't affect power to the coach. The "Battery Condition" lights are all lit, and when I turn on the inverter, I have two green lights on the box instead of two red lights....

I guess we will see if things keep working today or not..... very frustrating.

Denny

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Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1804
I assume you mean the house batteries? Putting a charger on them should do it. The control panel for the fridge is 12V and won't work at all without that voltage juice.

BTW - what kind of charger. Trickle or low amps? Please be careful not to overcharge them (I assume you have two house batteries? We only have one.)

Hope you get the problem solved soon.

Don


On 7-Oct-08, at 8:58 AM,

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1805
Yes, the frig is controlled by 12 VDC.

Yes, using a battery charger, plugged into an outlet in the RV or
power pole, will charge the batteries and get everything to working
again. I'd recommend plugging a charger into the power pole... as
not to reduce the amperage available in the coach.

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1806

Don,

I found a low amp charger at Sears that is also a "maintenance" charger.....two batteries, and the charger shows them fully charged.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1811

Denny,

You came soooo close to finding the problem. I read that the Thernal Fuse reset switch was "stickiing up a little". That must be pressed down. It must be flat to the surface of the fuse.
The reason you were getting 12v on both sides, is because, there is 12v from the batteries and 12v coming from the converter. But the converter voltage must go across that fuse to the batteries.
Now there is one other issue in charging those batteries. The converter that comes as "standard issue", is not a charger....only a converter. So unfortunately the only way they are going to get charged, is from the generator, or the engine,. when running down the road.
That converter will, with enough time, get them up but it will take a long time. Just make sure the Thermal fuse is doing it's job.
Also that converter output can only be mesured for sure, is with one output lead removed from the converter.

I found out the hard way, that if the batteries are low and the 60amp Intelli Converter is charging them and I move the Slides and the Jacks, there can be well over the 50amp limit going though that Thermal Fuse.

Well, that's my two cents on the Fuse. I wish there was complete wiring diagram on these MH s it would make all of this trouble shooting so much easier. What we are all doiing is reverse engineering, but I guess if we all keep at it, problems will be solved.

Regards,

Joe


Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1812
Denny
Which model Converter/Charger do have? Common models are Iteli-Power
http://www.progressivedyn.com/power_converters.html
and Iota.
http://www.iotaengineering.com/ppguide.htm
Both have auto reset for over/under 120 volt, and over current.
If voltage stays at 12 volts. It indicates the converter is not working.
probably need a new one. The inteli-power unit should have a charge
wizard on it to give proper charging voltage to the batteries. The
Iota system has a similar option. Latest models of both manufactures
these have this option built in.
Having bad batteries or connections will cause the unit to eventually
go bad.
Remove the negative lead (usually black) from converter. Check voltage
with converter plugged in. Voltage should be 13 plus volts. If not
fuses are blown or converter is bad. Both Iota and Inteli-Power have a
test procedure on their sites.
Hope this helps.

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1813

Thanks guys for ALL your help... I think we are close to the problem... gotta climb a roof this AM, then should have time to do some more troubleshooting. The converter is a WFCO 55 amp (Model WF-9855) converter with a two year warranty. I should go back with a better quality one if this one is bad, but given the other issues, I hope I don't own this coach much longer. My wife likes the Seneca, but a larger one, so will see what kind of "settlement" I get from Four Winds b/f we decide.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1814

Joe,

Would I still have the same voltage on both sides of the fuse if it was bad? I guess the battery is feeding back to the converter if the converter is bad, or visa-versa. I need to check the voltage with the converter unplugged to see if I still have voltage on both sides. Maybe the thermal fuse is bad.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1815

Denny,

In a word, yes. When the converter is plugged into 120V and the output is 12V DC, that is seen on one side of the fuse. If the batteries are at 12V, then that voltage is seen on the other side of the fuse.

So do this, with the converter receiving 120V, disconect the batteries Neg. (black) cable from its post at the battery, and measure the voltage on both sides of the Thermal Fuse. If the fuse is good, there will be 12v on both sides of the fuse. . If it is seen only on the converter side, then the fuse is open. Press the re-set switch. If that does not work, the fuse needs to be replaced with the same rating, 50amp.

Or, yes you could do it the way you said by unplugging the converter. But, remember to have the Battery Disconect Switch on when doing this.

Also, while you are at it, you can check the output of that converter as explained in the previous messages. The IntelliPower can put out 14.4V at it's max, but the original converter will be just a tad over 12V, I suspect

Take care,

Joe



Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1817

Well, this PM I got back to the coach and pulled the wires on the converter... sure enough, the meter showed no voltage when the unit was plugged in and the wiring disconnected. So I took out the converter. Luckily (?), Four winds had mounted it with only one screw and washer, so it was easy.

I hooked up a battery charger and it is working fine. The charger is automatic so it should shut off when the batteries are at full charge. Meanwhile, I need to pursue the warranty with WFCO. Will let you know how that goes.

I copied David Steinman's note to Steve's email... did he join the group yet?

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1818
He had already joined but was not familiar with the process apparently.

D

On 8-Oct-08, at 6:33 PM,

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1820
another easier option is to read voltage across the fuse... place one lead on each side of the fuse, on the same color wire (ie red). If the breaker is working you will see no voltage, if not you will see the difference between current battery charge, and output of charger.
Morrigan

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1821

Morrigan,

I tried your suggestion and got a reading of .03 volts with the meter set on "20" whatever that means... when I switched the leads, I got -.03 volts. Does that tell me the breaker is not working?

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1822
Looks to me, based on his comment, the breaker is working. Damned if I understand this stuff - electricity has always been my weakest subject next to chemistry.

Don


On 8-Oct-08, at 9:35 PM,

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1823
at that low of a reading (20 is the max voltage you can read in that setting 20 volts) no, probably not .03 drop across a Circuit breaker is completely reasonable, and probably (depending upon the quality of your meter) with in the error rate of the device. If your circuit breaker wasn't working I would expect to see more of a voltage differential, and it would get greater as your batteries discharge over time.
So with newly charged batteries, .1 or so, after a reasonable drain (say when your lights are noticeably dimmer and you plug in to charge...1-2 volts, and when the Fridge stops working due to the lack of dc control power 3 or more volts.
The neg sign just tells you which side is more positive, in this case, means nothing.
Morrigan

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1824

Don,

Ditto on that. I learned sometime else this morning. The voltage began dropping again and the fan stopped on the converter.... so I did what anyone would do out of frustration.... I beat on the converter with a small flashlight, and WOLAA! The converter started back up, the lights brightened, and the batteries began charging again! Of course, I have to beat on it every couple minutes cause it shuts off again.

All the connections I checked are as tight as they can be, so I think it is the converter.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1825

I called WFCO and they have in their website an option where I can order another converter online with a credit card, then send back this one in the shipping container. If the converter is covered under warranty, they will cancel the CC charge. If not, I will own two converters.

Denny

Re: Still having electrical problems

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1827
Denny,
you have a loose wire in there, disconnect it from booth sides (battery and shore power) open the case and start tightening screws.
MOrrigan