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Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Yahoo Message Number: 1315

I have posted just one example of the quality of workmanship in the Four Winds Warranty Repair department, whatever that is... as you can see from the photos, it is Four winds intent to "hide" the problem from the customer rather than to actually resolve the issue. Most of my concerns were never addressed, and simply discounted as "no problem."

It is obvious from these and other photos I will post in the next few days that Four Winds and Thor Industries consider the consumers of their products to be ignorant and forgiving to the extent they can get by with this type of shoddy workmanship.

They had my coach for almost a month, left Branson with a full tank of fuel, put 1500 plus miles on the coach, returned it with a fuel tank half-full, and all I have to show for the effort is crap like this... needless to say, I am frustrated and upset.

Denny

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Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1316

When comparing the "percent of sales" numbers at Fleetwood with Thor Industries, Fleetwood is 3.6% while Thor is at 2.3% on warranty repairs. The difference is that Fleetwood actually completes the warranty repairs, while Thor appears to cover up the problem as my hinge photos show.

After looking the coach over in detail, I have discovered several "design" flaws to contribute to the problems with the coach. One serious flaw is the aluminum overhead struts that support the roof and ceiling structure. They appear to measure at or under 1" square, yet the space they occupy is wider, perhaps 1.25" wide. At one time, it appears they used 1" by 1.25" square tubing, also using the tubing for a wiring "chase" for the ceiling lights. The exit point for the wiring requires a plastic grommet to protect the wiring from chaffing on the metal strut, so a 1" round grommet was used, requiring a 1" hole be drilled thru the strut, which, if 1.25" wide, is no problem.

Four Winds engineering likely decided that a 1"x 1" aluminum strut was structurally sound (and a few cents cheaper), so the design was redrawn. They did not redraw the design for the exit hole for the wiring, however, so the 1" grommet was continued to be used. Well, logic would dictate that you cannot drill a 1" hole in 1" square tubing without destroying the strut, but logic appears not to prevail in the RV industry. The hole saw for the grommet destroys the square tubing, so now the grommet falls out of the "hole" with no sides, and the integrity of the strut is seriously compromised and walking on the roof could cause the support to fail, collapsing the roof....

Denny

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1317

I have also posted the photos of the strut issue in Yahoo...

Denny

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1319

I do not know how many supports exist in my roof/ceiling, but five of them look like these photos...

Denny

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1320

I believe the bottom line is that we can "help" the RV industry improve the quality of their products by exposing issues such as these, or we can hide our heads in the sand and allow these indiscretions to continue, which in turn increase the cost of warranty work. If only the industry would learn to build them right the first time. These issues have nothing to do with workmanship... if management told the worker to pre-drill for the hinge screws and enforced the instruction, it would happen. If the design engineer told them to use a 3/4" drill and a 3/4" grommet for a wiring chase, and provided it, it would happen.

I would love to know what the other Four Winds owners have to say about the hinges and wire chases in their model year coaches. There are around 13 owners on this forum. I cannot ask you to provide the information, and many of you will not, and that is ok... Four Winds will simply continue to build trash and get by with it.

There is a multitude of design corrections that will make our coaches safer and improve the quality just by changing the type of screw used to attach, for example, the drawer closure locks. No added costs... just common sense that would make our lives and their products easier to build and reduce the warranty costs... DUH!!!!

Denny

Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1321

OK, I will get off my soapbox... I just finished posting a few more photos of the warranty "repairs." As outrageous as it is, if I posted this stuff on RV.net or iRV2.com, and linked it to my RVFactor blog, the moderators would pull my threads... they would call it "spamming" the industry. Thank you, Don, for being much more forgiving.

Denny

Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for fuel-efficient used cars.

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1322
Quote
OK, I will get off my soapbox...

Denny,

I believe you are atop a very important soapbox and I for one appreciate
your efforts. You are correct in that too many RV folks tend to bury
their heads and ignore these things. I have said before that I feel
it's primarily due to the fact that most of us would be considered to be
within the "older" category and in general we want to get on with and
try to enjoy the time we have left. Getting out on the road and
traveling is an experience we all treasure to the extent that we choose
to ignore a lot of problems inherent in our homes on wheels.

In lieu of taking significant action as you are courageously doing, most
of the rest of us are relagated to complaining... I'm certainly among
this group. Complaining and comiserating about our common problems and
issues is cathartic and helps to deal with some of the frustrations.
Sooo... thanks again Don for establishing and keeping this group going!!

Of course it's also very educational and I have certainly appreciated
everyone's thoughts, comments and inputs on all related subjects.
Additionally, a lot of the dialog is indeed positive and generally
constructive and interesting. For example it was fun traveling along
with Greg on his recent whirlwind western trip.

Bill

p.s. I was surprised to learn that RVnet and iRV2 was censoring your
references to the RVFactor blog.

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1323

iRV2 has been good... got my hands slapped a couple times. But RV.net shut me down completely at least once.

Denny

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1324

Bill,

I appreciate your comments... I find that the common "response" to Four Winds concerns is no response, which is what we have here....Four Winds seems to be a "sacred cow" and a lot of folks are happy with their Four Winds products, and more power to them. Coaches today can be designed to "hide" serious issues. The end result is unless you look for the problems, you never find them. Of course, there is a down side to that as well. The problems are still there, and are growing. Eventually they appear.... perhaps a fire from poor wiring, or a serious mold problem growing behind that vinyl ceiling material that doesn't show moisture infiltration. Or maybe while driving leisurely down that mountain pass outside of Denver when the road is a little slick...and the front axle unloads from poor weight distribution or too short a wheelbase. Perhaps "my" problem isn't yours... or like bpiner said, "I wish I hadn't seen your pictures."

Denny

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1325
Denny,

I am in the happy category with our 34h. We don't seem to have a
loading problem with the longer wheelbase and the quality hasn't been
too bad. One cabinet has a broken screw and recently the interior
panel where the rear TV is popped out. I will look again at the wiring
in the ceiling aluminum channel.

Basically, we have fun and it does what we want. The bunk beds are a
big advantage for us even though I wasn't specifically looking for them
at the time. The kids saw them and decided that is what they wanted.
So, there really isn't too much alternatives in the same price range.
There is Gulfstream and Jayco. But there were not Greyhawk bunk bed
models and Seneca's are bit pricier and heavier, which was a concern for
when we tow our Dodge Durango. Otherwise there was also some Class A
in the same price range and size, but not with diesel.

Also, previously we had a travel trailer that after using a couple times
the frame bent. And it took 4 months too deal with that. So, we are
much happier compared to that.

It is also 90 miles for us to get to the dealer, so with diesel prices
and driving times, the problem has to be fairly major to be worth taking
it in to begin with. I actually just picked up the RV Friday from the
Onan/ Cummins dealer because the generator started spewing lots of smoke
through the exhaust on out last trip. The injectors had some kind of
problem where lots of diesel was just going straight through. That's 2
trips to Albuquerque during the week, so over 6 hours of time just
driving.

It is unfortunate that the RV's are designed so they are very hard to
look at that is underneath and see if there are problems. And thanks to
your work it certainly seems that Four Winds/ Thor take too many short
cuts in the construction and design of the RV and it certainly would
affect my decision when it comes to buying another RV.

Obviously, it would be great if there was an independent association
that did check quality and design for RV's. Since most consumers
really have to assume they are getting a properly designed RV.

David
Quote
Bill,

I appreciate your comments... I find that the common "response" to
Four Winds concerns is no response, which is what we have here....Four
Winds seems to

Quote
be a "sacred cow" and a lot of folks are happy with their Four Winds
products, and more power to them. Coaches today can be designed to
"hide" serious

Quote
issues. The end result is unless you look for the problems, you
never find

Quote
them. Of course, there is a down side to that as well. The problems
are still

Quote
there, and are growing. Eventually they appear.... perhaps a fire
from poor

Quote
wiring, or a serious mold problem growing behind that vinyl ceiling
material that doesn't show moisture infiltration. Or maybe while driving
leisurely down that mountain pass outside of Denver when the road is a little
slick...and the front axle unloads from poor weight distribution or
too short a

Quote
wheelbase. Perhaps "my" problem isn't yours... or like bpiner said,
"I wish I

Quote
hadn't seen your pictures."

Denny

In a message dated 6/22/2008 3:23:34 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
berfle@... writes:

You are correct in that too many RV folks tend to bury
their heads and ignore these things. I have said before that I feel
it's primarily due to the fact that most of us would be considered to
be within the "older" category and in general we want to get on with and
try to enjoy the time we have left. Getting out on the road and
traveling is an experience we all treasure to the extent that we
choose to ignore a lot of problems inherent in our homes on wheels.

In lieu of taking significant action as you are courageously doing,
most of the rest of us are relagated to complaining.of the rest of us are
rela this group. Complaining and comiserating about our common problems
and issues is cathartic and helps to deal with some of the frustrations.


Gas prices getting you down? Search AOL Autos for
fuel-efficient used cars.
(http://autos.aol.com/used?ncid=aolaut00050000000007)

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1327

David,

Thanks for your note.... the organization is called RVIA, and we all fund the organization to the tune of about $100 when we purchase our motorhome. Unfortunately, they do not want to hear from us. This is a link to their website... http://www.rvia.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_RVIA .

Sadly, even though we provide the support dollars for their organization, they describe themselves as a trade association for the RV industry, and they state the following:

"Headquartered in the Washington, D.C. suburb of Reston, Virginia, RVIA is a unifying force for safety and professionalism within the RV industry and works with both federal and state government agencies to protect the interests of its members."

What this means is that they lobby for the RV industry, and against issues that negatively affect their members, like improved quality. And we pay the bill.

Denny

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1336
Denny,

This is a picture of the wiring for ceiling lights.

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/KodiakChassisClassC/photos/view/6b9a?b=7

They did use grommets around the ceiling vent, but on the other side where the light is, they did not.

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/KodiakChassisClassC/photos/view/6b9a?b=8

And this is the only place that they messed up on the cabinet doors.

http://autos.ph.groups.yahoo.com/group/KodiakChassisClassC/photos/view/6b9a?b=10

Quote
David,

Thanks for your note.... the organization is called RVIA, and we all fund
the organization to the tune of about $100 when we purchase our motorhome.
Unfortunately, they do not want to hear from us. This is a link to their
website... _http://www.rvia.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_RVIA_
(http://www.rvia.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=About_RVIA) .

Yes, I was kind of assuming a group actually independent from the RV Industry.

David

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1337

David,

Thanks for the pictures. In the photo taken near the fan they ran the wiring for the light from the fan so they did not have to cut into the roof support from the bottom, as you know. The other photo is typical of 2007 coaches with the 1" support and the 1" hole for the wiring. RVIA requires that there be grommets installed to meet safety and fire code requirements.

I would like to hear from someone with a 2008 coach or a 2006 or earlier coach, to see if Four Winds changed anything.

Thanks Again,

Denny

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1338
Denny,

Our 2007 is in the shop currently (for a recurring leak in the over bunk window), but I'll check for grommets once we get it back from the dealer.

John

From: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dmyhre943@...
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2008 9:05 PM
To: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality



David,


Thanks for the pictures. In the photo taken near the fan they ran the wiring for the light from the fan so they did not have to cut into the roof support from the bottom, as you know. The other photo is typical of 2007 coaches with the 1" support and the 1" hole for the wiring. RVIA requires that there be grommets installed to meet safety and fire code requirements.


I would like to hear from someone with a 2008 coach or a 2006 or earlier coach, to see if Four Winds changed anything.


Thanks Again,


Denny


In a message dated 6/23/2008 6:56:27 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, steinman@... writes:

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1357
I just developed a leak in our Four Winds Funmover somewhere up front, went to move and water came out of headliner .....
luckily didn't land on dear wife just missed her........!!!!!!!! would of caught he!!! for that one. looked but couldnt find a crack
Thanks I'll check out around the screws. Does the molding fit back in place if you take it out ? ? ? ?

t couldnt find John Robert Krzos wrote:

 

Re: Four Winds Warranty Repair Quality

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 1360

The molding is rubber....it just snaps back in place... it is easier if you do it during the heat of the day since it is softer then. Where is the water dripping from the headliner... under the rear camera monitor? You probably have a "pond" in that area.... If you remove the trim around the opening that holds the headliner in place where the cab was cut away, you can access the wet area and dry it out. If you check the lauan around the opening, you can see where it is wet on the edges.

Denny