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Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pretty

Yahoo Message Number: 16730
Hello all, first post here, thanks for letting me know about this place, Ron!

Just over a year ago the wife and I picked up our first motorhome (we've been trailer people for 10+ years). It's a 2008 Four Winds 34G with the Dmax. I realized pretty quickly that these rigs aren't the most comfortable vehicles to drive, in fact it just plain sucks. It doesn't help that the 34G has the far-too-short 213.5" wheelbase either (thanks a lot Thor...). We just got back from a 2 week/3,000 mile trip from home here in San Diego up to the tippy top of Montana and back. As long as the road surface is nice and smooth, the ride is fine but as soon as the pavement is even slightly broken or uneven or its windy, it is seriously aggravating. The rear end crashes like crazy and is very jarring. The front has that common spring knocking noise as well. In the wind it can be a real bear to control if it gets pushed around in the rear, its really unnerving. We were looking at used diesel pushers and 5th wheels out of frustration after we got back home but the pushers are just so dang big and the 5th wheel route means I cannot take my Jeep with me so I'd really like to figure out a way to make this rig somehow work, if it is possible. I like the fact that even though this rig is only 3-5 feet shorter than a pusher, it feels far smaller having the truck cab to sit in for driving.

So far I've installed Koni FSD shocks, Davis tru-trac front track bar, Hellwig front sway bar, Ultra-trac rear track bar, installed the additional option leaf spring in the rear (1.500lb additional capacity each side), and upgraded the tires from G rated 225 series to H rated 245s. The spring upgrade has eliminated the rear squat that it had and I no longer have to run 100psi in the Firestone air springs that the original owner installed in the rear (the rear axle is literally right at capacity with the motorhome just sitting empty due to its placement). Also had an alignment done and was told that the caster on the front axle was a touch over 4* (although I did not get an alignment report afterward, hmmm....)

Compared to before any of the above items were installed the ride has improved a bit and the overall handling is much better. I looked into air ride for the rear but the cost is a really hard pill to swallow not knowing if it would actually improve the ride enough. Also concerned that if I put that sort of $$ into air ride, the handling may very well be just as poor as before.

Thoughts? Am I chasing results that just can't be obtained with this rig?

Thanks, John

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16731
Welcome to the group.

There was a recent thread on the same subject. Different is that person
was towing a heavy trailer. I don't remember if the slapping on front
springs went away or I got used to them making the noise.

--
Best
Ron Hall

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16732
Hey John, I have an endura 6340. I have added shocks, rear air springs, and put 245s on it. The shocks and air springs made a world of difference. I am no longer nervous around semi's or cross winds. Broken pavement I agree it doesn't have a smooth ride like my Tahoe but with the heavy of suspension not sure it ever will. I am not really sure what else you could do over what you have already done. Maybe sumo springs or timbrens for the front, those are only a few hundred bucks. After that I would say you have done as much as you can with the chassis. I will say weight distribution makes a big difference. How fast are you driving? I try to keep it around 70 or below for best handling. I think over 75 is a bit much. Try loading more to the front of the coach. Are you traveling with a full load of water? My Gulf Stream has the 100 gallon water tank in the last compartment and that makes it a little more testy to drive. But overall, I am pretty happy with the drivability of our coach.


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16733
The one trade off of adding the leaf to the back is that it increases the total spring force adding to the stiffness and jarring effect of the suspension.

The one design thing I don't like about this chassis is that the steering gear does not have an external screw to adjust the steering lash. I asked our steering gear engineer at our oem company about this and he said our steering gear has to be taken apart to adjust the lash via an eccentric bearing. So if you can turn the steering wheel back and forth more than an inch or so( at the steering wheel diameter) at highway speeds without effecting the direction of the RV, you might consider having a steering gear rebuilder adjust the lash on the box you have. Excess steering lash will drive you nuts and adds to the loss of control during cross-winds, etc...

When I looked at buying the C5500 motorhome, I considered moving the rear axle back on the shorter ones to increase the wheel base. But it would be a big tear up and might be hard to find someone willing to do it.....

That short wheel base also adds to the harsh ride of the rear suspension because the dynamic effect of hitting a bump is amplified by the weight of the rv that is behind the rear axle..... I have the one foot longer wheelbase C5500 and I can say it's rear suspension ride is smoother than my 27' E450 Class C was by a long way. I have Koni's, original springs, and the firestone airbags on my C5500.

Hope I helped.....



Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16734
Hello!
Interestingly enough... I have the exact same rig as your and was very dissatisfied with everything about the handling. I made eactly the same modifications that you did and saw some improvements but not a lot. Seems to be worse when I tow my Jeep Wrangler unlimited. It feels like the Jeep is pushing the rear end around, especially when in a high speed turn..
 One thing I put on that actually made it worse was a Super Steer Steering Stabilizer.. I took it off! I have been running 100 psi in the rear tires and 80 psi in the front..
I've been thinking of going to the 245 tires and wondering if it made any improvements to the handling. I really believe that the short Wheel-base and the 15 foot overhangs behind the rear axle is the problem. Which I had known this before I bought it..
Gonna just live with it and keep me speed under 65..
Interested to see what the bigger tires did for you?
Thanks, Dave

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16735
I have a 2007 Four Winds Funmover, duramax 34C, wheelbase on it is 253 in with Koni shocks. After installing the Koni's that made huge difference in driving control. Enjoy driving this with no white knuckle.



Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16736
I added a rear track bar to my Seneca on the C5500 chassis and made a big difference when pulling my Jeep. Really stabilized the "pushing" of the rear end on uneven roads or when passing a semi.


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16737
One of the things I have heard of wearing out, is the drag link. It's a pretty cheap part less than 200 bucks and pretty easy diy job. I haven't done it to my rig but read several people replacing and made a big difference in handling. Might be something like that instead of suspension itself.


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16738
I second the rear stabilizer it worked

Larry Payne  ⛳

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16739
I've had my 2007 Seneca 34SS for about 18 months and 12k miles. At first I was alarmed at how it handled. But with no changes to the chassis and driving up and down the coast in all kinds of conditions I am now so comfortable I appreciate the drive ability of the rig. The short wheel base allows me to navigate all sorts of tight spots that those big Class As will not even try. Some small town gas stations are difficult to get in and out of but i can do it with the 34SS even pulling a toad. Those 40' buses need to find a truck stop. And I can put this rig in just about any RV space first time every time. Sure rough pavement shakes the dishes and opens a window once in a while, but I've blessed my choice many times watching 5ers and buses taking multiple attempts, running over curbs and rocks trying to avoid hitting trees, plumbing and electric boxes.

Now I don't go over 65 because my toad (CR-V) owners manual says that's the limit. And in CA any rig pulling is limited to 55 in move places. In WA it's 60. The few times I have done 70+ it does get dicey and the fuel usage skyrockets. But I think I read something on this blog about there being a limiter over 70 or 75. So the rig is just not designed for those speeds.

But the more I drive it the more I appreciate it. Hopefully you will too.

Ps. Take care on sharp turns, with the short turning radius the rear end really swings out. I learned this the hard way!

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16740
If you have a chance, drive a E450 based class C motorhome for comparison. It would be interesting to see what you think of the comparison.



Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16741
I'll do my best to clarify what I think I was trying to convey in my first post so bear with me, it may be a bit long...

Bought the rig in May of last year. After looking at many different floor plans, I chose this one specifically for the side hall, non-split bathroom that allowed more privacy to the bedroom (knowing now, I really should've bought the 35B model with the 239" wheelbase I was also looking at, at the time). It already had the Davis Tru-Trac front track bar and Firestone helper air springs out back. First real drive noticed right away that it shook like crazy and could not drive faster than about 55mph. Also the inner rear dual tires would not hold air. Found the the valve stem extenders were leaking as the threads on the valve stems themselves were worn out. Had a TCI replace all the valve stems with quality extended metal stems so no more screw on extenders, no more leaks! I removed all the clip on weights and installed centramatic wheel balancers, now I could go down the freeway at 65-70 with very minimal vibration from the tires, sweet!

I also noticed that the front end felt like I was on a pogo stick whenever driving over bumps/dips. It was semi entertaining at first then you'd almost get motion sick so after much reading, I ordered up and installed the Koni FSDs. Wow! What a difference! Much more controlled and stable going down the road.

First actual trip we took was up to the Eastern Sierras last summer. I bought a super C so that I could tow a flatbed trailer with my Jeep on it and not have to listen to a V10 screaming along up hills and such in a class A gasser or smaller class C. I had an 18' all-steel BigTex trailer already that I used. We hitched up and hit the road. We stopped in Barstow and I took the rig over the CAT scales to see what we were rolling along at. Come to find out that the rear axle was severely over-loaded and the front axle under-loaded which explained why the motorhome seemed to be squatting unless I ran 80-100psi in the rear helper air springs to get it leveled out. The sheet showed 4,560lbs on the front axle, 15,430lbs on the rear axle and 5,500lbs on the trailer axles. That's not very good for the 13,500lb rated rear axle/suspension. The front is rated at 7,000lbs. I also realized that the rear 14 ply 225 series tires were over-loaded at their max 110psi and with that pressure, the ride was TERRIBLE. You could feel every little pebble or small crack in the road. This was why I decided to upgrade to 16 ply 245 series tires. Since their load rating is significantly higher at their max pressure of 120psi, After referencing multiple inflation tables, I'm able to run them at approx 95-100psi and still have enought load capacity. This dramatically smoothed out the ride in terms of feeling everything on the road surface. Plus knowing i had new tires that had not been run flat for an unknown amount of time was one less thing to worry about.

I drove it this way for a while and while improved, the crashing and bouncing in the rear over rough roads was getting really frustrating. Also when a semi truck, or even a box van, passed me, it would push the whole motorhome all over the road. Same with side winds or in higher speed turns when towing the trailer, I would have to be counter-steering the opposite way I was intending to go. I never felt that the motorhome had a sway (tippy/side to side feeling) issue, rather the back of the motorhome seems to dictate what the front is doing, if that makes sense. I did a ton of reading and decided to install a front sway bar and a rear track bar. After installing those I noticed the rig was waaay more stable and responded much more quickly to steering input. However the rear still pushed the rig around. Steering slop has never been an issue either, my Jeep with a new steering box has more steering wheel play than this motorhome does, lol!

Still, the ride sucked overall. I looked into Kelderman and Reyco Granning for converting to air ride. Found it to be quite expensive and after speaking with an engineer at Reyco who advised that due to the over-loading on the rear end could result in even more handling issues, I kind of checked that option off my list. I then had a local spring shop take a look at the rear end and he recommended changing out the parabolic/taper leaf springs to a traditional multi-leaf setup like a pickup truck. The quote I was given for this was only about $1500 cheaper than going to air ride! Wow! I contacted Deaver to ask for their advise. The gentleman I spoke to there recommended that I stay with the parabolic/taper spring in my application due to the weight factor. He suggested doing an "add-a-leaf" basically that GM used to offer to up-rate the spring pack. This was significantly more affordable and I opted to give it a go. I installed the springs myself and found that with the new springs and 0psi in the air bags, the ride height increased about 3/8" above what it was before with 100psi in the bags to bring it to level. Driving the motorhome now, the rear suspension actually moves and is far less bouncy and absorbs some of the bumps which it seemed to not do before and it actually rides quite a bit better but it still crashes quite badly.

I've also been working on re-distributing the weight in the motorhome and getting as much weight forward as i can. The fresh water tank is just in front of the rear axle, the black and grey tanks are just behind the axle. The propane tank and 80 gallon diesel tank are also just behind the axle. The diesel generator, batteries and refrigerator are all between the front and rear axles so there isn't a bunch of weight hanging behind the axle thankfully. I hit the scales on our trip although this time instead of the trailer and Jeep, we had my wife's car on a dolly in tow. New weights were 5,560lbs front, 14,140lbs rear, 3,760lbs dolly/car axles so much improved!

We got back from our 2 week Montana trip this past Saturday. As long as the road is smooth, the ride is fine. As soon as the road is broken, cracked, uneven or whatever it gets pretty old pretty quick. There was also a lot of wind that I dealt with and the head and side winds were tiring to keep the rig on the road. Still feels like the rear end is driving the front. I feel like I'm pretty much at the end of what I can do and it's quite frustrating. Moving the rear axle back would really help things a lot I think but that just doesn't make sense $$ wise. We've gone and looked at a few used pushers but they are just so freaking huge, it makes no sense. I still have my diesel truck and looked at a few 30-32' 5th wheels which we really like but then I cannot tow my Jeep with me which would be a huge bummer as I LOVE to explore off road.

Sorry for the long winded post, just frustrated and bummed out about my first motorhome ownership experience...

John

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16742
Hi John
I had a 35 foot 2007 kodiak c5500 diesel. Mine was unsafe to drive when I bought it, unbelievably. Just like you I did everything. It was safe and not scary any more.
So on my last trip with it I was going down a 5 lane wide freeway and hit a bump in the road. The bounce was so bad the passenger side mirror bounced up and came out of its socket. Gone in middle of freeway.
That was the last straw. My diesel pusher is easier to drive than that was.
The newer super c's have corrected a lot of the problems with air suspension in rear and heavier truck overall.
Sorry I know this is not what you want to here. Just more info

Larry Payne  ⛳

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16743
Larry, I agree. We had two pushers before getting our Kodiak - which was a gasser since it had better capacity to tow our Tahoe.

When we were getting work done on the Kodiak at McCormick

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16744
All I did to our 08 35GS was add KONI'S and set the tire pressure as recommended by Michel

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16785
I have a 2008 HD 35GS.

I added a front sway bar, front and rear stabilizer, and sumo springs front and rear.

The rig already had new shocks and 17.5K springs.

Prior to what I added, it got shoved around by passing trucks (or vis-versa) and gusts.
It was a two fisted white knuckle drive from LA to Austin. I always felt
like I had to make micro adjustments and was always behind the rig.

Now its much more stable. I can drive one handed, scan gauges, not quite SUV level,
but a much more comforting and confidence inspiring ride.

I still have a safe-t steer to add. This may all be overkill,
but I plan on pulling a 28' enclosed trailer behind me (with anti-sway hitch), so I'm not taking any chances.

My last trip I pulled a 2008 Jeep JK 4D behind us, never noticed it was there except for sopping or surging when the road surface was poor.

Mike

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16786
Did you add a track bar to the rear? That made all the difference in mine along with 19,500 springs and shocks. I would add that before doing anything else but sounds like you don't have much more to add.


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16787
Same rig here Mike, and very similar suspension upgrades. I would hold off on the safe t steer or any other steering stabilizers without more research. I'll explain more if you'd like, but it's quite wordy via email
Chris Mize
(559)250-3153

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16788
What tires and tire pressure are you running? Have you weighed your MH
and set tire pressure at the tire manufactures recommendations for that
weight.

There is a lot of discussion on RV.NET about setting Caster and Camber
on Ford E450 Chassis motor home. I have seen discussions on the C5500
chassis also. Here is a link to one thread on the subject.

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/29654149/gotomsg/29654168.cfm#29654168

Here is a link to several threads on the subject.

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/search/parms/sw%7Bcamber%7D%7Ckm%7Bexact%7D%7Ckl%7Bm%7D%7Cfm%7B23%7D%7Cpd%7B365%7D%7Cma%7B%7D/sr/1.cfm

Finding a shop that will work on it with solving handling is hard to find.

--
Best
Ron Hall

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16789

With our 08 35GS all I did was add KONI shocks and adjust tire pressure according to weight per Michelin. I could drive it with one hand on the wheel while towing our Silverado.

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #20 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16790
Just my 2 cents worth in this... Installed a Safety Steer on mine.. After about 10 different attempts to get it aligned correctly I gave up and removed it.. Talked to the people at Henderson's alignment and they do not recommend them for the c5500 chassis. Save your $500.. if you really want one I'll send you mine just for the cost of shipping!

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #21 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16807
it has 245 series H rated 16ply tires, up from the original 225 series G rated 14ply units it came with.

yes i have the pressures adjusted for the weights i scaled with last month; 75psi front, 95psi rear.

i had the alignment checked before the trip. the caster was around 4* and only a tad of toe adjustment was needed. the wheel is centered and it does not pull to either side.

side note; i found a set of good clean used alcoas on craigslist a few weeks ago and put them on the coach earlier this week. no idea how it drives yet but i can say the amount of difference in weight was quite alarming to me when i was manhandling the wheel/tire combos around. from what i can gather, the alcoas are about half the weight of the original steel wheels. the amount of rotating weight that I've removed from the rig should help something. will see when i drive it next time.

I've come to terms with the fact that thor really screwed this up by building the motorhome on a wheelbase that is FAR too short for the overall length and weight distribution so there really is no further improvement to be had without some major re-engineering of the rear axle location. that makes no sense $$ wise so I'm just going to be living with it for a couple of years until we can move on to something different. if i had driven both this floorplan AND the 35B floorplan that i was looking at before buying this 34G, I'm pretty sure i would've been able to feel the difference of the 2+ foot longer wheelbase that it has over the 34G that i ended up with. lesson learned!

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #22 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16813
Rough ride may be from the H tires. I ran 245 G tires on my 34' GS. Did not have a rough ride.

Best
Ron Hall

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #23 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16820
going to these tires actually has helped as i can now run quite a lot less air pressure than previous and still have more than enough load capacity in the tires

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #24 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16821
The added sidewall thickness adds to a harsher ride.

--
Best
Ron Hall

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #25 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16822
My 2005 seneca 34ss was unwieldy until I put an "additional" roadmaster swaybar on the rear, and a large sway bar on the front.
New bilstein shocks, and a steering centering device on the steering. Oh ya, a new arm from the steering box to the long bar between the wheels. These additions helped the wind, truck and over-steer conditions by 90%.
But, the rig still wanders more than I would like. It seems the rig does better if I am not towing (I tow a Jeep Liberty flat). Is there a way to minimize "the tail wagging the dog". It isn't terrible, but still noticeable. annoying
Ralph

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #26 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16823
A rear trak bar did a lot for mine 2007 kodiak diesel.

Larry Payne  ⛳

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #27 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16824
What brand or design did you use. I have looked at some images and I will eventually give this addition a try.


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #28 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16825
This is the one I put on my c5500.. Pretty easy to install yourself if you are so inclined. Made a HUGE difference!
https://supersteerparts.com/product/motorhome/class-a/f-53/20k-22k-gvw-f-53/supersteer-trac-bar-ford-f53-20k-22k-chassis-bolt-3rd-member/
Dave
Quote
On Saturday, July 28, 2018 Ralph Hinkle rlh_dlh SuperCrvgroup@yahoogroups.com> wrote:



What brand or design did you use. I have looked at some images and I will eventually give this addition a try.




Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #29 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16826
Thanks. With a friend, I have installed most of the other suspension components.

Ralph


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #30 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16827
I can't even remember what brand sorry. But if it bolts to ur rearend and has a rod, bar, or extension that attaches to ur frame. Then that's it.

I raised my suspension in the rear like 5 inches. With added leaf springs. This stopped ass end dragging and gave me suspension. I was now able to hit a bump or hole and feel some suspension. It put more Weight on frt end. And less on rear made a huge difference.
The trak bar helped with the sway. Cut it in half . MH top going left to right. I could actually feel MH leaning, in wind or turn, and the leaning would be half.
My kids following me could see the diffference

Larry Payne  ⛳

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #31 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16828
I had track bars installed on front and rear. It stopped the tail wagging the dog. Without the track bar, the spring bushings allow to much side to side flex.

Dan



Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #32 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16838
Maybe front and rear will be the solution.
Thanks,
Ralph


Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #33 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16849
Ralph,

On mine, the front is a Davis Tru-Trac track bar that the previous owner installed. On the rear I installed an UltraTrac unit that is also used on the Ford F53 chassis. It fit correctly and is a well built piece, especially for the cost compared to other brands out there.

https://www.ultrarvproducts.com/UltraTrac-Trac-Bars/UTF53V10R-Rear-Ultratrac-Trac-Bar-Ford-F53-20-22k-GVW-Chassis?filter=128

As far as sway bars (or anti-sway bars) the rear is still the stock unit. Up front I installed the Hellwig unit. It looks identical to the Roadmaster and BlueOx units but at a better price.

Re: Really rough ride, poor handling in the wind/on uneven roads, pr

Reply #34 –
Yahoo Message Number: 16851
Thanks, John.
I have bookmarked the site.
Ralph