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Water Pump Relay?

Yahoo Message Number: 12391
Happy new owner of a 2007 Four Winds 34H. Purchased in California, she now lives in Lake Stevens, Washington. We are an avid snow skiing family and one of our primary motivations was to have a "mobile ski chalet." This together with some family trips, soccer tournaments, etc. etc. before the kids disappear once they get their driver's licenses :(
Love the coach and was reasonable prepared for the "issues" that come with being an RV owner.
I have already repaired my inverter and done a few other fixes, but this one has me stumped!
We were up at the mountain pass last weekend. It was reasonably cold in the evening, say 20-28 degrees over night. On Saturday morning, I woke up to a water pump that was a little slow to a first, but after some use started working fine, then no issues until later that evening, and the pump hasn't worked since. During that day at some point the circuit (a 30-amp shore power service) popped and the coach was without power. Never did understand why it popped, or if it had anything to do with the problem I have now.
So that is the history... Since then I have tried to track down the problem. Here is what I have learned about my coach:
1. I have two water pump switches (one in the sanitation station under the rv and one in the galley) that I believe operate similar to a 3-way light switch.
2. Neither have any 12v power coming into the 3-pole switches
3. Fuses from the "monitoring panel" and the "water pump" are working fine.
4. I am having a heck of a time following the wires from the fuse to the switches. Lots of crawling under the coach, following wires with my test light and filling my back pockets full of driveway gravel.
5. I have tested the individual switches for continuity...they are fine.
6. I'm convinced there is a relay somewhere that operates these switches, but no luck so far.
7. I read a post that suggested there might be a relay of sort in some Class-A's behind the sanitation station panel, but no luck there either.

Well....there is my sad story.......Now I'm begging for HELP. Has anyone seen this this mystery relay that I am dreaming of. Want Any other suggestions??

Oh...and yes, a freeze protection (heat cable, etc) mod is also on my list. Be very interested in feedback on that as well

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12392
Have you checked the connection on the fuse panel for the water pump? I've never seen a relay used, sure sounds like a bad connection.



Dave

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12393
Yup!
Water pump fuse is good!
Funny thing is that behind the monitoring panel there is a hot 14-gauge wire that isn't being used. When I disconnect the harness, I can stuff the hot wire into the incoming end and run the water pump. Runs perfect. On and off with the varying demand. I did this because I really wanted to rule out a pump problem. The positive lead on the pump was easy to follow all the way to the monitoring panel inside. Pump is fine!

Thanks,
Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12395
Hey Ron:
The switches are toggles, each with three connectors (all being used). One in the coach and one on the wash bay. Not sure if they are momentary. I guess my thought was that it was like a 3-way switch for lighting in the house. The switch in the coach has an indicator light and the one in the wash bay does not?

I have seen the relay that you forwarded on other rv forum posts. I would love to find one. Just not having any luck!

Thanks for the info! I'll keep looking!

I keep thinking that Four Winds (Thor) May have slipped an inline fuse in there somewhere.

Regards,
Eric Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #5 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12396
Eric, are you sure that the 14 gauge wire that you found has nothing to do with your issues? I doubt that they would terminate a hot wire behind the panel. Just thinking out loud

Regards
Doug Brothers

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #6 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12397
Pull the water pump fuse and see if the wire you found is still hot. I agree with Dougm that is probably the wire for the pump and it came loose from someplace.



Dave

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12398
I'll take another look Doug, but the wiring behind the panel is very organized with about a 1 inch thick diameter bundle of wires coming through the kitchen cabinets, leading to three harnesses that deliver wires to the generator, slide toggle and water heater switches. Everything is in the right place, just have an extra power and ground hanging there.
Must agree with you that it seems odd. They weren't even terminated properly. I'll give it a look again when I get home and maybe upload a photo! Actually have a photo of the switches as I took a photo to make certain I could put it back together properly.

Regards,
Eric Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #8 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12400
That is a brilliant idea!
Will do the same for the monitoring panel fuse.
Just puzzled as to how this wire could have been subjected to a force which would cause it to pull apart.
Will be my first order of business this evening!

Regards,
Eric Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12401
No luck with removal of the fuse. Turns out, after some investigation, the loose wire is a spare ceiling light wire. At least I know what it is now.
I also confirmed direct continuity between the outside posts of the two switches. The middle post on the inside switch is the one that goes straight to the pump. Tried to see if the middle post on the outside switch had continuity with the negative side of the pump. But it didn't. To me this says there is a relay somewhere, but ??? I don't know!
Back to the drawing board. I'm going to use the little continuity check cable I made to check the continuity between different sections of wire going through cabinetry etc.

I do remember when sliding under the RV yesterday that the main cable bundle was frozen for several inches. Appears as though condensation had built up inside the conduit tubing (that flexible black stuff of varying diameter), where a low spot had developed. Didn't think much of it at the time as the wires all appeared to be still in good shape. Lots of ice and water spilled out. Anyone see a problem with that? I rearranged so the low spot would go away. Now that I think of it, maybe I should force a low spot a cut the conduit so future condensation will drain?

Anyways... Appreciate the good ideas. I'll get it eventually....

Regards,
Eric Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12402
No luck with removal of the fuse. Turns out, after some investigation, the loose wire is a spare ceiling light wire. At least I know what it is now.
I also confirmed direct continuity between the outside posts of the two switches. The middle post on the inside switch is the one that goes straight to the pump. Tried to see if the middle post on the outside switch had continuity with the negative side of the pump. But it didn't. To me this says there is a relay somewhere, but ??? I don't know!
Back to the drawing board. I'm going to use the little continuity check cable I made to check the continuity between different sections of wire going through cabinetry etc.

I do remember when sliding under the RV yesterday that the main cable bundle was frozen for several inches. Appears as though condensation had built up inside the conduit tubing (that flexible black stuff of varying diameter), where a low spot had developed. Didn't think much of it at the time as the wires all appeared to be still in good shape. Lots of ice and water spilled out. Anyone see a problem with that? I rearranged so the low spot would go away. Now that I think of it, maybe I should force a low spot a cut the conduit so future condensation will drain?

Anyways... Appreciate the good ideas. I'll get it eventually....

Regards,
Eric Schneider

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12407
Hey all! Success here Seattle!
Found the problem! And fixed it!
Turns out the that while the fuse panel has separate fuses for the "monitoring panel" and the "water pump" it is the water pump fuse only that supplies 12v to both. Remains a mystery what the "monitoring panel" fuse feeds.
Occurred to me at work today that if that black wire that goes to the switch for the outside shower was actually the DARK GRAY that exited the fuse panel in the rv, that the 3-way switching would make absolute sense. Sure enough, after examining it closely it was dark gray. I jumped the switch to a hot lead and everything worked. When I say it out load.........MAN! Working with a headlamp in the snow at night can play trick on a guy. That's the story I'm going with at least.
With my new-found energy I went back to that low spot where the wires and conduit had frozen. There is also a conduit branch tee at this location. I found the dark gray, tugged it a bit, and low and behold it just pulled apart. After removing 10-feet of electrical tape, I removed the conduit and branch tee and found the two other wires it was connected to. This was a surprise as was only expecting one. Turns out this wire split to two other wires and once crimped together with a quality connector, the gods were happy.
After reassembling the conduit tee and taping it up, I then zip tied the conduit to other adjoining cables, forcing it out of a low-spot and twisting it to make sure it drains.

Anyways, pretty disappointed with the cheesy wiring job, but not really surprised. I drew up a diagram of the pump and monitoring wiring and identified the location of the failure. Will attach to a future post.

Thanks to everyone that took the time to offer advise.

Re: Water Pump Relay?

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12408
Here is the wiring diagram as promised.
Hopefully it will help someone else someday!
Thanks again!


On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:02 PM, "schneidertime@..."  wrote:

Re: Water Pump Relay? [1 Attachment]

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12417
Sweet and thanks! I just printed this for the coach files - my Dutchmen is essenttially the same coach with a few more upgrades. Kind of like the difference between a Chevrolet and GMC car or truck.

Be well,

~
Victor - KI6IM
Kodiak Diesel Dutchmen 34H Bunkhouse


On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 10:04 PM, Kristi Schneider  wrote:

Water pump relay?

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 12399
Here are the two switches. White one is from outside. The other is part of the monitoring panel (LP, black, fresh water, etc).
By the way.... The monitoring panel is not working either.