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Let's talk leaks

Yahoo Message Number: 10513
Anyone had the fiberglass end cap fill with water? In September, right after a tropical storm dumped about 7 inches of water on us, I found the upper bunk was wet. I have vent covers, but the vent was open a tad and I assumed since it sits right front corner low in storage that the water running down the roof splashed into the vent. I got things dried up and we went about our lives. I've been over to it several times since I put it up for the winter at the end of October, but today I noticed the upholstered panel at the front of the bed was wet. I pulled the mattress and everything was wet under it and the front panel had soaked up a lot of water. One thing led to another and I pulled the panel, then the storage cabinet and one piece of finish ply. I pulled the wall papered panel off the frame and foam to expose a joint between that and the plywood bed base. That let me see into the bottom of the front of the end cap and it was full of water. Soooo, it looks like it took a whole for enough water to build up to where it seeped out under the mattress and soaked up the upholstered panel.

How much water? A LOT! I took the shop vac over and stuck a narrow nozzle into the crack and sucked about 3 gallons out. Holy crap.

I've been all over the top and seams and don't see anything obvious. On the bottom front corner of the cap where the molding strip goes, it looks like it might be dripping. It's sealed so tightly that I'm hesitant to start digging and pulling the strip off.

Idea? Anybody ever done the Sealtech pressurized leak test? Supposedly the Camping World in Raleigh has one, but I can't verify til the service section opens tomorrow.

I've pulled lights, speakers, etc from the ceiling and can't find anything damp up there. I didn't pull the front marker lights, but they look to be well sealed and the lenses aren't full of water.

I'm a little discouraged right now :-/

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #1 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10514
When Russ Hill visited us last year. We found that there was places along front seam between cap and roof. Cleaned it up and put a 4" strip of Eternabond on front and rear cap seams. As far as I know he has had no leaks.
Best
Ron Hall

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #2 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10516
Check the very top where the roof molding and cap molding meet. It might look good but I found a spot that t wasn't sealed after pulled the screws and pulled the molding away from the coach. I didn't have water in the cap but saw a small spot where the wood was swelling under the filon.

The Sealtech is the way to go. It will find the smallest of pin holes if done right.

Dave Sparke

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #3 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10518
I had a similar issue with my '05 Endura. After looking at everything up front like you did without finding anything, I started looking elsewhere. Ends up the antenna wire had come loose . There was enough sealant on the perimeter of the antenna that it formed a little lake around the entry spot for the coax and it would fill up with water, drain into the wire channel and come out in the front cap area. Resealed the coax where it enters and the problem went away. There was so much water in the cap that I expected to still have an issue but the cal has been dry since with numerous rainfalls.
Greg Thompson
MN

From: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Greg Gimlick
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 3:19 PM
To: Kodiak
Subject: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]



[Attachment(s) from Greg Gimlick included below]

Anyone had the fiberglass end cap fill with water? In September, right after a tropical storm dumped about 7 inches of water on us, I found the upper bunk was wet. I have vent covers, but the vent was open a tad and I assumed since it sits right front corner low in storage that the water running down the roof splashed into the vent. I got things dried up and we went about our lives. I've been over to it several times since I put it up for the winter at the end of October, but today I noticed the upholstered panel at the front of the bed was wet. I pulled the mattress and everything was wet under it and the front panel had soaked up a lot of water. One thing led to another and I pulled the panel, then the storage cabinet and one piece of finish ply. I pulled the wall papered panel off the frame and foam to expose a joint between that and the plywood bed base. That let me see into the bottom of the front of the end cap and it was full of water. Soooo, it looks like it took a whole for enough water to build up to where it seeped out under the mattress and soaked up the upholstered panel.

How much water? A LOT! I took the shop vac over and stuck a narrow nozzle into the crack and sucked about 3 gallons out. Holy crap.

I've been all over the top and seams and don't see anything obvious. On the bottom front corner of the cap where the molding strip goes, it looks like it might be dripping. It's sealed so tightly that I'm hesitant to start digging and pulling the strip off.

Idea? Anybody ever done the Sealtech pressurized leak test? Supposedly the Camping World in Raleigh has one, but I can't verify til the service section opens tomorrow.

I've pulled lights, speakers, etc from the ceiling and can't find anything damp up there. I didn't pull the front marker lights, but they look to be well sealed and the lenses aren't full of water.

I'm a little discouraged right now :-/

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #4 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10519
Should have added on the side wall.

From: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of mnsprk@...
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:06 PM
To: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Kodiak
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks



Check the very top where the roof molding and cap molding meet. It might look good but I found a spot that t wasn't sealed after pulled the screws and pulled the molding away from the coach. I didn't have water in the cap but saw a small spot where the wood was swelling under the filon.

The Sealtech is the way to go. It will find the smallest of pin holes if done right.

Dave Sparke

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #7 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10522
yes, I had a leak problem with my front cap, caused the bottom platform that's the bed up there, to pull free of the sides, because the screws and plywood rotted. Covered under warranty. Cause was the front seal that terminates the roof membrane to the fiberglass cap.
Morrigan

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #9 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10532
I had a small leak in the same spot - It must have been tiny but I had some water but not that required anything more than clean-up.

I had the roof sealed and have not seen any water there afterwards - it was just a preventative reseal of the roof joints - BEFORE I even noticed there was any issue up front.

In Cali its sunny most of the time and warm / dry otherwise to anything drys out quickly anyway.

Still looking for a long rainy spell to check it again?

The Dutchmen has a one piece roof but its old school type.

I had a shop do the sealing - its kind of an art form - My attempt to spread that goo was tough.

Be well,

~
Victor - KI6IM
Kodiak Diesel Dutchmen 34H Bunkhouse

From: Greg Gimlick
To: "KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks


W LEHMAN morrigan_graham@...> wrote:

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #10 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10533
well here in Western WA, its rainy enough and humid enough that the small amounts of water I was finding I had put down to condensation...until the leak got bad and then it was too late, fortunately it happened while under extended warranty.
Morrigan


To: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com
From: vburns1@...
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2013 08:29:07 -0800
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks


I had a small leak in the same spot - It must have been tiny but I had some water but not that required anything more than clean-up.

I had the roof sealed and have not seen any water there afterwards - it was just a preventative reseal of the roof joints - BEFORE I even noticed there was any issue up front.

In Cali its sunny most of the time and warm / dry otherwise to anything drys out quickly anyway.

Still looking for a long rainy spell to check it again?

The Dutchmen has a one piece roof but its old school type.

I had a shop do the sealing - its kind of an art form - My attempt to spread that goo was tough.

Be well,

~
Victor - KI6IM
Kodiak Diesel Dutchmen 34H Bunkhouse

From: Greg Gimlick
To: "KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 6:27 PM
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks


W LEHMAN morrigan_graham@...> wrote:

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #11 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10536
By the way I had my coach in at one warranty place and there were lots of coaches with the same problem.

What amazes me the antiquated methodology by which RVs are constructed, the ancient hardware etc. Even the high failure parts remain the same decades later.

I was amazed when my shower door roller failed - and there actually a new, redesigned part...

Be well,

~
Victor - KI6IM
Kodiak Diesel Dutchmen 34H Bunkhouse

From: Greg Gimlick
To: Kodiak
Sent: Sunday, January 20, 2013 1:19 PM
Subject: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]



Anyone had the fiberglass end cap fill with water? In September, right after a tropical storm dumped about 7 inches of water on us, I found the upper bunk was wet. I have vent covers, but the vent was open a tad and I assumed since it sits right front corner low in storage that the water running down the roof splashed into the vent. I got things dried up and we went about our lives. I've been over to it several times since I put it up for the winter at the end of October, but today I noticed the upholstered panel at the front of the bed was wet. I pulled the mattress and everything was wet under it and the front panel had soaked up a lot of water. One thing led to another and I pulled the panel, then the storage cabinet and one piece of finish ply. I pulled the wall papered panel off the frame and foam to expose a joint between that and the plywood bed base. That let me see into the bottom of the front of the end cap and it was full of water. Soooo, it looks like it took a whole for enough water to build up to where it seeped out under the mattress and soaked up the upholstered panel.

How much water? A LOT! I took the shop vac over and stuck a narrow nozzle into the crack and sucked about 3 gallons out. Holy crap.

I've been all over the top and seams and don't see anything obvious. On the bottom front corner of the cap where the molding strip goes, it looks like it might be dripping. It's sealed so tightly that I'm hesitant to start digging and pulling the strip off.

Idea? Anybody ever done the Sealtech pressurized leak test? Supposedly the Camping World in Raleigh has one, but I can't verify til the service section opens tomorrow.

I've pulled lights, speakers, etc from the ceiling and can't find anything damp up there. I didn't pull the front marker lights, but they look to be well sealed and the lenses aren't full of water.

I'm a little discouraged right now :-/







Take care,
Greg

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #12 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10539
There is no doubt that while the chassis technology has improved the house technology sucks. No work or research has been done on Tunnel testing, Crosswind deflection, Lateral restraints on the box etc. The end cap leak is a well known weak spot; yet they keep on rollin them out just like they always have. The electrical systems do not use any solid state circuitry and hence we have miles of wire. I guess why do it as long as there are buyers.

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #13 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10543
Ramesh,

Agreed, absolutely, as long we are buying why bother.

It is a shame this industry not have modernized more with all the money it goes around.
One day maybe one day.....

From: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ramesh.R
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2013 1:04 PM
To: KodiakChassisClassC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [KodiakChassisClassC] Let's talk leaks



There is no doubt that while the chassis technology has improved the house technology sucks. No work or research has been done on Tunnel testing, Crosswind deflection, Lateral restraints on the box etc. The end cap leak is a well known weak spot; yet they keep on rollin them out just like they always have. The electrical systems do not use any solid state circuitry and hence we have miles of wire. I guess why do it as long as there are buyers.

Re: Let's talk leaks [3 Attachments]

Reply #14 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10552

Greg,

Sometimes the top strip will become loose and create a hair line crack that is very hard to find. If you remove the sealant from the screws, look for rusted screws. That will give you a clue as to where the leak is. Then remove the sealant along the strip. You will see dirt lines where the water has entered. Tighten the screws and add more then clean and reseal. I would do this first, before the water delaminates the filon. Chances are you will not find the leak any other way. Putting air presure in the coach can miss that type on leak.

Dan



Re: Let's talk leaks - Follow up

Reply #15 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10557
Thanks for all the tips and thoughts. I took the coach to Greensboro
yesterday and had it tested with the SealTech machine. I was able to be
in the shop when he went over it so that was nice. Really nice shop too.
Anyway, it was pretty damned tight except for the seal running down the
side where the front endcap attaches to the coach. That is leaking in a
couple of places. The top seal along the roof and all the marker lights
were tight. One tail light is bubbling and the third brake light is
bubbling. Nothing else bubbled anywhere on the coach so I was glad of that.

They will completely re-do the endcap seal on the one side and check out
the strip where I had sealed before and changed to SS screws. There is
shrunken molding strips covering some screws around the front so since I
was in this deep, I just told them to replace all of that with nice
flexible new stripping.

Here's a breakdown of the bad news:
SealTech test   $119
Fix seals    500
Complete roof
seal       700
Other repairs    200
Gen service    129
Parts       150

By the time they do the tax and such it will be right around $1800. I'm
not happy about it, but it has to be done. I figured with the cold
weather, at least they can do it in the heated shop and get everything
done by the time I'm ready for it. The complete roof seal is scrubbing
it all down and cleaning the joints, then resealing them and replacing
the vent covers, etc that need to come off.

The tech was telling me the best thing they've found for cleaning the
roof joints for good adhesion of whatever you're putting over it is
denatured alcohol and a brush with lots of elbow grease.

I'll replace all the cabinetry, etc I removed so that will keep me from
having to pay their labor for that, besides, I trust my woodworking.

I can see that if I don't just quit this RV stuff altogether after
almost 40 years, I'll be doing a SealTech test annually. Cheap insurance
against leaks like this one.

Greg

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #16 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10869
Recently checking joints / re-sealing GS 6340 prior to AK trip - wasn't happy with seal along vinyl molding around sides-bottom of nose-cap. Pulled one end of vinyl loose, and noted NO butyl tape under the extruded aluminum joint-cover, and nearly every "STEEL" screw was rusted to little more than a nail. Pulled it ALL off (vinyl was easy, but aluminum took air-drive ratchet and plenty of contortionist activity). Probably a quart or so of water drained out over 10 min. Dried it all out, gobbed the hell out of the joint with Dicor, put in new STAINLESS #10 screws, and made sure there were no voids in sealant as I screwed it all back together. Hardest part was cleaning up the stuff that oozed out (had to put rubber-backed rug on hood and work upside-down with brake cleaner). Top seam well covered, and clearance lamps well-sealed. I'd suspect you may have similar issue with side joints - they may be poorly sealed, as mine were.

JT

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #17 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10870
Got any pictures of your repair. When I met Jeff (Mile High Endura) last month he showed me how he cut floor out of his entertainment center to get access to the bottom of cab over. I need to do this if not for fixing. But to inspect the area.
Best
Ron Hall

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #18 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10871
JT wrote:

Quote
Probably a quart or so of water drained out over 10 min.

It's amazing how much water that endcap can hold with no indication it's
there.

Quote
Hardest part was cleaning up the stuff that oozed out
(had to put rubber-backed rug on hood and work upside-down with brake
cleaner).

I'm afraid if I laid on the hood it would collapse. Reaching that area
is problematic at best.

Quote
suspect you may have similar issue with side joints - they may be poorly
sealed, as mine were.

They were, of course the big difference between our repairs is you were
able to do it yourself whereas mine cost me $2000 :-( There was tape
under the aluminum strip though and my leak was at the top corner where
it all comes together. There was another small leak at the bottom corner
of the endcap molding where some of the water collected was dripping out.

I had the work done at Camping World in Colfax, NC and they were pretty
accommodating when I said I wanted to be there when he did the Sealtech
test. You know the old thing about no customers in the shop due to
insurance....yada, yada, yada. They took me back and let me walk around
with the guy as he sprayed the soap and looked for leaks. I asked if
they would Sealtech test it after repairs and was told it would be
another $125 for the second test. I told them if they weren't going to
do that, then they could give me a written guarantee that the leaks had
been fixed and they would last at least two years. A little back and
forth with the service writer, but then the service manager said they
would do the test again and hopefully they could leave the machine
connected without it being needed for another job.

Second test after the repair showed no leaks. We also found some air
escaping around a tail light and one window. The front marker lights
were the things the tech suspected the problem was coming from and he
was surprised to find they were solid. Part of the big expense came from
me having them do a complete clean and reseal of the roof.

Greg
 

Re: Let's talk leaks

Reply #19 –
Yahoo Message Number: 10872

The top strip across the cap is a typical place for a common leak. The sealant should be removed, all screws inspected and then completely resealed. The water can set against that strip and get into the cap. The leak may not be visible until the sealant is removed.